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Juan M
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 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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"dejablues" <dejablues@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:g56sac$545$1@registered.motzarella.org...
| Quote: |
"Herman Rubin" <hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:g55lb6$1g4c@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
In article <qln0741t507oc8hi2311ru8kcond2gdnoc@4ax.com>,
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Dom <DRosa@teikyopost.edu> wrote:
In view of the fact that "quality education" existed
If it really did, it was only for a small subset of society.
when there were
no programs for "gifted students," I do not see how the current state
of pseudo-education in the U.S. is related to a lack of resources for
"gifted students."
The programs for gifted students are jokes. One cannot go
"deeper" at an elementary level; it should be
Damn the teachers and administrators; full
speed ahead in learning.
Any child who can be a reasonable college student should
be out of high school by the age of 15; for the gifted,
before their teens.
Why the rush?
Age 15? That seems arbitrary.
Fifteen-year-olds vary widely in maturity levels, with males tending to be
less mature than females. I'd say that most young people aren't ready for
college until their early 20's, regardless of their IQ or high school
achievement.
Young academically gifted students might be able to handle the coursework,
but socially, they suffer.
Easy. There are more kids to be educated, to a higher level of
expectation (and the level of expectation for the gifted students is
higher still), and education in general costs a lot more.
Not if students are grouped by ability and to some extent
background. We are suffering from the grade-a-year social
adjustment educators who took over about 75 years ago.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Unfortunately, the policy of NCLB seems to be intent on punishing the low |
achievers rather than providing for learning for all students, gifted,
average or those with problems.
Of course, the genuine goal of NCLB is to transfer as much money from the
public to the private sector (aka wealthy Republicans). |
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Juan M
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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| Apparently, you agree with Brave New World. |
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Herman Rubin
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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In article <DK6dnatDbfMgZOrVnZ2dnUVZ_h7inZ2d@centurytel.net>,
Juan M <jdmollanSPAMMENOT@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Apparently, you agree with Brave New World.
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I do not. I believe that each person should be educated as
well and as fast as possible. One cannot make a silk purse
out of a sow's ear.
You hyperegalitarians seem unable to realize that people are
different, and that socialization should be separated from
education. The only way I can see to get teachers to allow
children to progress academically is to make it expensive to
hold a child back, even in one subject, for any reason other
than lack of academic ability.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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Bob LeChevalier
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
| Quote: |
You hyperegalitarians seem unable to realize that people are
different, and that socialization should be separated from
education.
|
Except for the rare hermit, socialization cannot be separated from
being a human being. There is ALWAYS socialization in a school, and
age and maturity differences can have enormous effect on that
socialization.
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org |
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Herman Rubin
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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In article <r89k74hbdvbgg3o46pifj9ekdd6oclql0m@4ax.com>,
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
You hyperegalitarians seem unable to realize that people are
different, and that socialization should be separated from
education.
Except for the rare hermit, socialization cannot be separated from
being a human being. There is ALWAYS socialization in a school, and
age and maturity differences can have enormous effect on that
socialization.
|
Online classes, and home schooling, are not socialized.
Electronic classes may have some socialization
involved, but the age and "maturity" differences will
be considerably reduced.
Age and maturity differences can occur; expect the younger
students to outperform the older, and to advance more
quickly.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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Bob LeChevalier
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <r89k74hbdvbgg3o46pifj9ekdd6oclql0m@4ax.com>,
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
You hyperegalitarians seem unable to realize that people are
different, and that socialization should be separated from
education.
Except for the rare hermit, socialization cannot be separated from
being a human being. There is ALWAYS socialization in a school, and
age and maturity differences can have enormous effect on that
socialization.
Online classes, and home schooling, are not socialized.
|
Yes they are. The student is still interacting with the teacher (and
it is easier to have misunderstandings in online communications, where
one does not have as many social cues), and in home-schooling, with
whoever else is in the home (and socialization inside of families
tends to be more distracting and demanding that in the school. Mom:
"get down here and take the trash out" takes precedence over that
online class math problem). Indeed, in a less structured environment,
distractions are probably more common.
Human beings are social creatures, and you simply cannot take the
social interactions away by decree.
| Quote: |
Electronic classes may have some socialization
involved, but the age and "maturity" differences will
be considerably reduced.
|
I think you are wrong.
| Quote: |
Age and maturity differences can occur; expect the younger
students to outperform the older, and to advance more
quickly.
|
Depends on their attention span (which tends to increase with age) and
interest in the subject. Most people do not have a natural interest
in mathematics (or any other given subject), but society still expects
them to learn it (and dealing with societal expectations are part of
socialization as well).
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
lojbab@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org |
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Herman Rubin
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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In article <a3ik74ptj73nqo5dkn4olv3aa4v4kj3bbd@4ax.com>,
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article <r89k74hbdvbgg3o46pifj9ekdd6oclql0m@4ax.com>,
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
You hyperegalitarians seem unable to realize that people are
different, and that socialization should be separated from
education.
Except for the rare hermit, socialization cannot be separated from
being a human being. There is ALWAYS socialization in a school, and
age and maturity differences can have enormous effect on that
socialization.
Online classes, and home schooling, are not socialized.
Yes they are. The student is still interacting with the teacher (and
it is easier to have misunderstandings in online communications, where
one does not have as many social cues), and in home-schooling, with
whoever else is in the home (and socialization inside of families
tends to be more distracting and demanding that in the school. Mom:
"get down here and take the trash out" takes precedence over that
online class math problem). Indeed, in a less structured environment,
distractions are probably more common.
Human beings are social creatures, and you simply cannot take the
social interactions away by decree.
|
Another point; if it is not too emphasized, it might not be
much of a problem. At age 7, my son had a peculiar program,
taking most subjects with a sixth grade class, and science
with eighth grade. No problems arose.
At age 11, he audited the strong undergraduate algebra
and analysis courses at Michigan State University,
again with no problems.
| Quote: |
Electronic classes may have some socialization
involved, but the age and "maturity" differences will
be considerably reduced.
I think you are wrong.
Age and maturity differences can occur; expect the younger
students to outperform the older, and to advance more
quickly.
Depends on their attention span (which tends to increase with age) and
interest in the subject.
|
My son, as soon as he started to read, would have proved
you wrong, at age 4.
Nor do I see any reason why attention span should increase
with age. The length of time one is willing to sit in the
chair and listen to the lecturer drone may be drilled into
the student, but this is not the same.
Most people do not have a natural interest
| Quote: |
in mathematics (or any other given subject), but society still expects
them to learn it (and dealing with societal expectations are part of
socialization as well).
|
At this time, "society" expects them to be trained in it,
not to learn it. Few high school teachers of mathematics
have any education beyond training. One head of a high
school mathematics department has given up on asking
candidates to prove that 2+2 = 4; many said that we know
it, so we do not have to prove it. Such a person has NO
understanding of mathematics, and probably not of anything
else, but especially not in the science. What is obviously
true is often found to be, on careful consideration, to be
false.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
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toto
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Resources Run Short For Gifted Students |
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On 14 Jul 2008 11:08:50 -0400, hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman
Rubin) wrote:
| Quote: |
Depends on their attention span (which tends to increase with age) and
interest in the subject.
My son, as soon as he started to read, would have proved
you wrong, at age 4.
|
While attention span is individual, it certainly does increase with
age. How many really young children have you been around, Herman?
Reading to children increases attention span as well.
Attention span is the degree to which a child demonstrates sustained
focus on designated tasks and activities, especially in school. During
the preschool and early elementary school ages, attention span varies
with age, gender, and type of activity. A longer attention span is
generally found in older children than in younger children, and in
girls more often than in boys. Children are usually able to maintain a
longer attention span when performing tasks that match their abilities
and interests.
A child who is bright as your son was certainly will have a longer
attention span at 4 than the average child does. However, even a
gifted 4 year old will probably have a shorter attention span for
something he is not interested in.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits |
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